connielane | It's not that I don't love R/Hr...

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It's not that I don't love R/Hr...

...because I do. But I definitely think I'd like it more and be more interested in it if I weren't involved in the fandom. As it is, there's a tiny bit of bitterness there, and I feel kind of annoyed sometimes when people talk about R/Hr as the "real" romance of the HP series. Because I don't feel that way at all.

Obviously, I don't expect everyone to share my particular perspective, even if they ship the same pairings. But it makes me sad that there still seems to be an implicit rivalry between R/Hr and H/G. And, more significantly, that I'm not exempt from it. I find myself getting very defensive about H/G lately, and even sometimes annoyed that people seem more interested in R/Hr than H/G now (Which is only to be expected, right? Because, I mean - FINALLY).

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, and I know I'm being incredibly annoying and whiny, but I had to get it off my chest. I just love my OTP, and wish I felt that other people loved it as much as I do. But there's obviously nothing at all that I can do about that. The world does not revolve around me and my needs. :P

In other news, I have no comment whatsoever on BoldGate. I'm currently sticking my fingers in my ears and just hoping it will all unhappen. Because I reallyreally do not want to leave LJ.

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Er, honestly, while I do think as a factor in the canon series H/G is just as, if not more important than R/Hr by fact that Harry is, indeed, the protagonist, I kind of have to say that I saw the inevitability of R/Hr far sooner than I did H/G - while the feelings the two Weasleys had for the others was pretty clear since CoS, I kind of felt like Ron's behavior toward Hermione was more indicative than Ginny's toward Harry, I think it was more subtle than 'Ron has a crush on Hermione.'

And Hermione has always been my favorite character - which I know is sometimes an oddity among the R/Hr-Ron-Weasley lovers (Ron could annoy the crap out of me early on), but that probably did mean I was always more interested in her love live than even Harry's.

You know, I've always called myself a R/Hr shipper first, but the last few weeks have really made me realize all over again how much both ships matter to me, because one without the other feels really incomplete. In general I am very happy to compare and contrast them because they have been realized in very different ways, but it does make me a little sad when I feel like somebody is trying to paint one as superior to the other. My emotional relationship with the series has really grown to involve both and I find the total coming of age arc really far more satisfying with both in there; I can barely imagine one without the other at this point.

I feel kind of annoyed sometimes when people talk about R/Hr as the "real" romance of the HP series.

I think it's fair to say that R/Hr has been the "most prominent" or the "most developed" romance in the series; those seem like factual statements to me, just judging from sheer quantities of page time. R/Hr was evident earlier than H/G (there was H/G foreshadowing in CoS, but the actual R/Hr romance appeared sooner) and developed more on-page. So those things I would be willing to agree with.

But I also don't particularly like saying one is the "real" romance of the series, since that sounds more like a value judgement that doesn't have much content other than to put the other ship down. I feel like in books 6 and 7 put together, we get to see how both relationships can be sweet and wonderful and we also get to see both relationships under stress and strain. But since HBP was more stress for R/Hr and then they finally got the sweetness in DH, I think that is what is most prominent in people's minds right now. I think a lot of people who are R/Hr shippers first are just really happy with the way it was realized, but I agree with you, I feel sad when I see H/G being put down at the same time.

people seem more interested in R/Hr than H/G now

Oh, not me. I am much more interested in H/G at the moment. R/Hr was ♥ but I feel like Jo resolved it so wonderfully there's not much more to say. With H/G it was left very open-ended, we know they got married and lived happily ever after in the long term but really have no idea how they got back together or what things were like between them after being separated for so long. The details are not filled in for us and so I find myself thinking abut H/G much more.

R/Hr as the "real" romance of the HP series

H/G is my primary ship, but I don't consider it or R/Hr as the primary romance of the series. Even though the series revolves around Harry Potter, the story is about much more than just him growing up; it's more about the entire trio's growth and what they mean to each other. Harry's romance and Ron & Hermione's romance are equally important IMO. (This reminds me of the old debates with the dominant H/Hr argument: This book is about Harry Potter, not Ron Weasley! Hee).

I somehow get the feeling that this is related to my R/Hr essay (http://12-12-12.livejournal.com/6827.html), right?

I'm really sorry if I harshed your squee--I hate it when that happens to me, and I just want to say that it was completely unintentional. All I wanted to do was write about how much I loved R/Hr, and how well done I thought it was in Book 7. I just added a tiny comment about H/G right at the end of the essay, and it's a pity that some people have fixated on that, although I guess it validates your point about there being an implicit rivalry between the ships.

For what it's worth, I don't think that R/Hr is the "real" romance of the series, nor do I think that this is what Rowling intended. It just happens to be the one (canonical) romance I enjoyed, and the one I like writing and thinking about.

Of course you are protective of your OTP, it's your OTP. You're right though--for me, the real romance of the series is R/Hr and I never liked H/G and probably never will, however I will 1) Fight to the death for Harry/Ginny against Harry/Hermione shippers if I have to and 2) For me, it has never been about the romance with Harry, so bottom-line...it doesn't matter much to me who he ended up with. He ended up with Ginny, fine--as long as he's happy that's all that matters to me. Would I have liked him to end up with someone else as long as he was just as happy. Absolutely. It would have made it more interesting to me. At the end of the day, I'm just fine with it but I'll always see it as a missed opportunity. But can you really argue that R/Hr was not the romance of the series? It was the most developed, most anticipated, most fleshed out romance of the books. H/G was second, for sure, but come on....really?

However, I can totally see your point. If a H/G fan first came out and said that Ron should have ended up with Luna or someone, I'd be spitting nails like WTF?!

Not to steer the conversation away from all the H/G R/H love that's happening but P could you give me the lowdown on what's up with LJ? I've only seen one brief blurb about it and basically ignored because it didn't connect with my flist. But now that you have mentioned it, I'm pulling my hands from off my eyes and going OMGWT#!?...will this effect me and what is this? Thanks. L

A lot of my thoughts echo what

peachespig said (big surprise, I know ;) ). For me, R/Hr and H/G really are two parts of the same whole: OBHWF all the way baby!

While H/G is my OTP, I genuinely love R/Hr as single/separate ship as well. From a storytelling perspective, I do think R/Hr was a more prominent ship as a subplot. It had internal conflict that needed to be resolved in order for the characters to complete their primary arcs and to be the best supporters to the protagonist that they could. H/G is very important in the overall outcome of the coming-of-age plot but it was not featured in the same way, for as long a time, etc. And there was more opportunity for readers to become invested in each of the halves of the whole relationship. Many of us connected very strongly to Ginny even prior to OotP, but I can't argue that we know her as well as we know Ron and Hermione and I don't think JKR would try to say that we do.

However, I also have to say that calling R/Hr THE romance of the series is not quite right and I don't think a lot of the people who've said that mean it quite that way anyway. From my perspective, I have to admit that I might not be as fond of R/Hr if Harry did not get together with Ginny, because that would leave him kind of "out in the cold" IMO (unless he had died and stayed dead).

As it is, there's a tiny bit of bitterness there, and I feel kind of annoyed sometimes when people talk about R/Hr as the "real" romance of the HP series.

I enjoyed both relationships and what they brought to the books, but I think R/H was just more...central (not sure that's the correct word) to the series. It has more page time and is developed throughout the series. (One could also argue that having the climax of the R/H relationship so late in the series gives it added weight as the "central" ship.) H/G was obviously planned, but their romantic relationship did not really develop until HBP. And in DH it's mostly off-page for obvious (and stated) reasons.

From a personal standpoint, I have always felt far more emotionally invested in R/H. This is no surprise to me because I love tension and all the emotions being out there. And with R/H, you've got seven books worth of bickering and drama before the pay-off. Love it.

In contrast, H/G was essential, but not necessarily for me. It did not touch me in the same way emotionally, probably because of the limited story time (though it was *fantastic* when it finally bubbled to the surface -- yay chest-monsters!).

Now, I cannot imagine the books without H/G. Ginny (and/or what she represents) was important to Harry's decision to come back. Ron and Hermione, as wonderful as they are, are not the conventional family Harry has always longed for. This is why the epilogue is essential. We need that closure for Harry (not just to fend off the H/H-ers). But I'm human (and therefore selfish) so the R/H ship will always represent something slightly more special to me. It has nothing to do with the "realness" of either ship, though.

So if your OTP is H/G, go you. We're all canon, after all, and isn't that what really matters?

There will always be a rivalry because we are talking about two different ships (even if they don't have the characters in common). People will always want to think that theirs is more important as it makes them feel more important. Others like that

12_12_12 obviously thinks Ginny is a bit of a Mary Sue, so that makes them feel more justified in making their OTP more special and important.

You know H/G is my first but I think a lot of people preferred R/Hr because it wasn't as in your face. We read the books though Harry (he was always my fave so his romance was more important to me), however, I don't think some people have grasped that concept. Ron and Hermione had more page time because Harry was with them a hell of a lot more and it took him time to work out what was going on between the two.

Ginny is a different matter. We never saw her side of anything really, except her crush, which even 12 year old Harry could work out. What happened to turn people off Ginny was Harry's about face towards her, suddenly the sun shone out of her arse. Ginny was never all that and a bag of chips (we know that), but what people failed to see was that we were seeing Ginny through Harry's rose coloured glasses. All the other characters opinions never changed but his did. This is what shits me, when people fail to see this.

I can't even imagine comparing H/G and R/Hr as to which is more "important" or better-written or whatever, because to me they're both essential. Choosing between them would be like choosing between "Harry defeats Voldemort" and "Harry lives happily ever after" (or toast and butter or chocolate chips and cookies) I demand both!

As to interest, I'm avidly looking for and enjoying fanart and fanfics of both right now, pretty much in alternation. Of course I'm also craving Snape/Lily and James/Lily and anything with Albus Dumbledore or Minerva McGonagall in it!

I sort of missed BoldGate and don't really understand what it's all about, or more importantly, what the big deal is.

But I agree with

angua9 in that in my opinion both ships are important to the story. I think that any overshadowing R/H may be doing at the moment is comparable to H/G squeeing after HBP. That was the book where we finally got H/G. This was the book that finally gave us R/H. I've never really been able to choose between the ships (except to the extent that Ron is my favorite character so I've tended to defend R/H a bit more in my day), so I was equally excited for both ships. I also suppose I've been away for too long; I remember R/Hers and H/Gers being mostly the same group. I didn't realize a rivalry had developed. :(

I don't even think I can separate them at this point. H/G did wind up being done a bit differently than I'd expected, so I can understand where the naysayers are coming from... but I loved it anyway, whether it was a predisposition toward Ginny on my part or the fact that Harry getting those sunlit days and a family of his own was as important to me as Voldemort's defeat.

To me, the rivalry started after HBP. I think a lot of R/Hr's were angry and resentful that H/G happened first despite the fact that their ship's anvils started falling far earlier in the series.

I think that some of them still are angry about that and so they are trying to "prove" that their ship wasn't first, but it is best.

H/G is my OTP and I've never understood the appeal of Ron/Hermione. But, I have always refrained from criticizing the "good ship" because I felt like, ultimately R/Hr's and H/Gers were on the same side. I wish the Harry/Ginny ship haters would do the same thing.

Yes, they have a right to their opinion and yes, they have a right to express that opinion. I just wish they'd realize that they didn't HAVE to.

-SAB

You know, I think I remember feeling exactly this way a long time ago, during the three-year summer. I distinctly remember a good fandom friend of mine saying that she expected H/G to happen, but didn't love it the way she loved R/H. And I, being impressionable, started wondering if it was silly of me to love H/G so much, much more than R/H, when it wasn't as developed or obvious or whatever. To be honest, I did feel a little bit as though Sugar Quill were the R/H website and Gryffindor Tower were the H/G website and we at SQ thought we were better for that reason. I always associated myself with the "R/H (H/G on the side)" crowd -- I lived at SQ and hardly ever visited GT, I posted a zillion times on the R/H vs H/H threads and about three times on the H/G vs H/H thread, and most of my friends were (I thought) primarily R/H shippers. But the ship I thought about all the time, wrote stories about, identified with was H/G.

I guess my point is that I don't think this shadow of a rivalry is a new thing -- although I guess it is more prominent now. Back in the day there were R/H shippers who didn't see H/G happening or didn't care; now there are R/H shippers who don't like the way it happened. H/G, bless its heart, has always had its detractors. If they're not complaining about Ginny being a pathetic little dishrag you could wipe the floor with, they're complaining that she's too strong-willed and fiery and awesome (er, I'm guilty as charged there...). But no matter how JKR wrote Ginny, there was never a chance that everyone would like her, because she's the main love interest we've been waiting for for so long! She's the big thing! I think H/G (even H/whoever if it had for some inconceivable reason turned out another way) was destined to be sat upon, spat upon and ratted on. But at least we got it right, and we got to read it in canon.

For what it's worth, I think R/H was probably the romance that JKR had the most fun writing and I had the most fun reading out of all the romances in the series. But thematically, H/G is totally more important, and more beautiful, and we always knew it would be. It just wasn't a major plot point, which I'm grateful for, because even though I used to write stories in my head where Ginny's love for Harry helped defeat Voldemort, it wouldn't have been a Harry Potter kind of story.

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This comment is really late -- sorry!