posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 12:34am on 06/08/2007
What I meant was that even though my essay was devoted almost entirely to R/Hr and basically had one sentence referencing H/G, quite a few of the comments I received discussed only the part of my essay where H/G came up.

And I think this validates [livejournal.com profile] connielane's point about there being an "implicit rivalry" between the ships, because some people assumed that my essay was trying to compare the two ships, when it wasn't.
 
posted by [identity profile] peachespig.livejournal.com at 12:40am on 06/08/2007
Oh, but that's fandom and that's human nature. If you write a beautiful, well-thought out essay about something that your audience largely agrees with you about, and then add at the end a throw-away line that appears to denigrate something that half of your audience likes, the throw-away line will get all the attention every single time. That's the way it goes. It's why trolling works; its the controversial remarks that get all the attention.
 
posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 03:17am on 06/08/2007
I am learning this the hard way, it seems. :-)
 
posted by [identity profile] mrs-bombadil.livejournal.com at 12:55am on 06/08/2007
I did not assume that the purpose of your essay was to compare the two. I did not think R/Hr in relation H/G was even supposed to be a significant portion of it. However, it was pretty clear that the only part of it relating to H/G did rather come of as "R/Hr rulez and H/G droolz", whether you intended it to or not. It was the final point you made, unfortunately, and IMO one of the weakest (and not just because I like H/G more than you do). However, it did not spoil the essay for me or cause me to disagree with any else on principal. It was your comments and your response to the people who called you on it that made it seem more like you had an agenda, not less so.

Now, I'm not saying this to gripe or try to manufacture or feed a rivaly or anything. However, I think you might consider how what you chose to write helped give that impression rather than indicating that any friction only came from people over-reacting or taking your point the wrong way. Perhaps you were not implying that final attitude at all: that's why I asked for clarification but your response didn't settle it in my mind so that's why I went ahead and said my piece regardless.
 
posted by [identity profile] greyashowl.livejournal.com at 02:50am on 06/08/2007
I agree with this and this is why I didn't respond to the essay. The part about Ginny and Harry at the end and even in the comments to the post pissed me off to no end. I figured it was easier to shut my mouth and let others take care of it :)
 
posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 03:17am on 06/08/2007
I've replied to your comment in my journal, here (http://12-12-12.livejournal.com/9609.html?mode=reply).
 
posted by [identity profile] mrs-bombadil.livejournal.com at 05:03pm on 07/08/2007
That was quite gracious of you. :)

I've not acknowledged it sooner because, to be honest, I've been trying to figure out what to say and a way to do it without making anybody agitated (or implying that the issue is bigger than it is).

But, I have to say that the apology probably wasn't necessary. Or, at least, not as a specific response to my feedback about the essay and ensuing discussion.

For one, it sort of makes it seem like there's been this enormous outcry among H/Gers about it (I'm not saying that you think that or intended to imply that, btw), and I don't think that's the case at all (or, at least, none that I'm aware of). Perhaps some were riled up (and one of the things I wanted to accomplish was to illustrate a reason for it other than H/Gers just being LOLsensitive), but I think some of the responses you got (mine included) were more about how that "throwaway" line kind of undermined the intellectual (versus emotional) attempt to state a purely pro-R/Hr case.

It seemed to introduce an element of anti-H/G as a further support for the beauty of R/Hr and was bound to become a focal point in the discussion as a result. Furthermore, I chose to belabor the issue in the context of this entry because it seemed to me (although I've already allowed for the possibility that I could be mistaken) that you interpreted the R/Hr vs H/G aspect as coming primarily from H/Gers, without good enough reason, and I did not think that was accurate. At the time that I asked you for clarification above, there was only one commenter to your essay who solely addressed the H/G remark in a significantly disgruntled fashion. Any of the other responders (like myself) who called attention to it did so in a) a very calm manner, imo and b) also included contributions related to R/Hr. Furthermore, there was a higher number of people noticing and reacting to the H/G negativity and agreeing, applauding, or belaboring the point than there were people calling it into question (not that I at all blame the relief and solidarity from people like [livejournal.com profile] chickadilly and [livejournal.com profile] dianora who are delighted to find 'sane' compatriots who love R/Hr but not so much Ginny or H/G). So, your implication that the response you received reflected a measure of "rivalry" is potentially accurate, but any intimation that it was solely or mostly coming from H/Gers is not. Again, I feel that I have to say that you might not have been meaning to suggest that, but that's how it came across to me, especially since you seemed to be dismayed at the pro-H/G dissent but not with the anti-H/G cheers.

Of course, if you wanted to submit a case that incorporates both, that's totally your prerogative. Anyway, as has been clarified here by [livejournal.com profile] connielane, your essay was not primarily what had her vexed. I just wanted to respond to what you had to say about its impact. In the end, I think the primary reaction (much of it not necessarily stated) is that people who like R/Hr (which is includes a ton of people like myself who also like H/G) were overwhelmingly in agreement about what you had to say about that pairing.

I just suppose I feel personally compelled to use way too many words to attempt to clarify my position and reasons for responding while trying to convey that I'm not actually "upset" enough personally or in a way that requires the making of amends. :)

It doesn't feel like I was particularly articulate, however. Oh well, *sigh*, these discussions are difficult and awkward sometimes and I think that is one of the things that was being felt at the time of the original post.
 
posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 06:17pm on 07/08/2007
I'm reluctant to continue spamming [livejournal.com profile] connielane's LJ, but I couldn't find an e-mail address, so I'm replying to you here.

But, I have to say that the apology probably wasn't necessary. Or, at least, not as a specific response to my feedback about the essay and ensuing discussion.

My discussions with you were part of the reason why I did post the apology, but not the only reason, or even the main reason. I decided to post it after seeing various comments on this thread and in reply to my post that made me think that if anything I had written made people feel the way they did in those comments, I should apologize.

Furthermore, I chose to belabor the issue in the context of this entry because it seemed to me (although I've already allowed for the possibility that I could be mistaken) that you interpreted the R/Hr vs H/G aspect as coming primarily from H/Gers, without good enough reason, and I did not think that was accurate...

So, your implication that the response you received reflected a measure of "rivalry" is potentially accurate, but any intimation that it was solely or mostly coming from H/Gers is not.


This actually makes things a lot clearer for me, because I did not realize from your reply to me here that this was why you were asking me for clarification, and I didn't realize that this was how you'd interpreted my comment to [livejournal.com profile] connielane.

I'm actually very surprised that what I said came across in that way. Here's my actual clarification, copied from above:

"What I meant was that even though my essay was devoted almost entirely to R/Hr and basically had one sentence referencing H/G, quite a few of the comments I received discussed only the part of my essay where H/G came up."

I meant this to include both the comments from H/Gers who were upset by what I said, and comments from people who were saying, "Yes, I totally agree! R/Hr is so much better than H/G!" without mentioning any other aspects of R/Hr as a ship. I was puzzled, because these replies indicated that some people had interpreted my essay as a comparison of the two ships, when it really wasn't.

You're probably right in speculating that putting the sentence about H/G at the end of the essay may have increased its impact, but I didn't mean it as a conclusion to the post: I had just included it in a bunch of "Miscellaneous Bullet Points," which is how I often round off my longer entries. But I can fully understand why some people may have interpreted it as a concluding point.

I'm really genuinely surprised that I sounded as if I considered the rivalry and R/Hr vs H/G as "solely or mostly coming from H/Gers." I really can't see anything in the sentence I quoted above that would suggest this, but I guess some things just get lost in translation.
 
posted by [identity profile] mrs-bombadil.livejournal.com at 06:46pm on 07/08/2007
Well, I did express a lack of confidence that that might have been the case but wanted to address it anyway, just in case there were others who might've interpreted it that way.

There are two contextual reasons for my incorrect assumption:

1 - Initially it had to do partly with the vexation you expressed (the "ETA"). There was clear frustration with the response from pro-H/G dissenters but none, that I saw, with those who liked/appreciation the remark about the Ginny/Cho/Luna episode.

2 - Subsequently, and part of the reason I even brought it up here, was in case anybody got that impression from your apology and the current response it's received in the Comments.

There is a very good chance that I am being LOLsensitive about fandom thinking H/Gers in general are being LOLsensitive! ;)

Which is ironic in light of the fact that I'm also seeking to clarify that I myself wasn't being LOLsensitive about the discussion.

So...yeah. I should definitely stop talking now: whenever I've sick of the sound of my own voice, I know I've gone on too long. :D
 
posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 04:55pm on 09/08/2007
I meant this to include both the comments from H/Gers who were upset by what I said, and comments from people who were saying, "Yes, I totally agree! R/Hr is so much better than H/G!" without mentioning any other aspects of R/Hr as a ship. I was puzzled, because these replies indicated that some people had interpreted my essay as a comparison of the two ships, when it really wasn't.

I also wanted to add that I'm in no way criticizing any of these commenters. I'm glad they all came over to express their views, whether I agreed with them or not. I was just surprised that my essay had made the impression that it was intended to compare R/Hr and H/G.
 
posted by [identity profile] persephone-kore.livejournal.com at 01:30am on 06/08/2007
Well, of course people are going to focus on the part they disagree with. Especially if:

-the rest of the essay is well enough written not to seem to need further elaboration.

-the one sentence they disagree with is not particularly integral, and therefore looks like a gratuitous slam.

-the rest of the essay is usually a position "allied" to theirs, so that the apparent slam also seems like a betrayal.

I went to look at the end of your essay, and to be honest, because in the added note you seem exasperated and condescending toward the people who responded primarily or only to the mention of H/G, I find myself uninterested in reading the rest of the post.
 
posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 04:41pm on 13/08/2007
You are quite right--the ETA in particular was posted in haste and I have sorely regretted it ever since. I'm glad I had people point this out to me, and hopefully I'll be more considerate and careful in the future. I'll certainly try.
 
posted by [identity profile] persephone-kore.livejournal.com at 06:02pm on 13/08/2007
That was a very gracious response, especially since I realized after posting that my comment was too brusque to avoid being rude and intrusive. I apologize.
 
posted by [identity profile] 12-12-12.livejournal.com at 10:16pm on 13/08/2007
No problem! It's not the first time I've wished there was an "Unpost" button on LJ. :-)
 
posted by [identity profile] persephone-kore.livejournal.com at 12:35am on 07/08/2007
--I should probably note that I'm assuming the essay is in fact the "beautiful, well-thought out essay" Peachespig referred to. I just think that makes it all the more likely for responses to focus on points of disagreement.

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