connielane: (JKR)
Add MemoryShare This Entry
In my perusal of several shipping fora over the last several months, I've seen an increasing number of fans express a sentiment similar to this:

If J.K. Rowling writes X (or doesn't write Y), I will have to conclude that I overestimated her as a writer.

I'm not going to point fingers at particular persons, nor am I trying to say that this is exclusively a shipping phenomenon. If I use examples from shipping debates, it's because that's where I've spent a good deal of my time. But lots of people who don't give two hoots about ships seem to hold to this philosophy. For whatever reason, several fans have decided in advance that certain ideas/plots/character actions are inescapably ... bad.


Where does this come from? Is it simply a lack of trust in the author? Perhaps, but that's not all of it. Is it the inevitable response to the author shutting down the fantasies we've built up about her story? That, too. But there's something a little more petulant underneath it all. What the sceptics seem to be saying is that they know how the story is supposed to unfold and what messages it is supposed to contain. And dammit, if the author doesn't do what they have in mind, she's no better than a dime store smut novelist.

Maybe it's not my place to say so, but I positively *boggle* at people who can think this way. People who have checklists for things like what makes good/bad writing, what messages authors should be sending to their impressionable readers, and precisely what a character must do in order to convey a particular emotion. They sit there with their mental clipboards, clicking off all the minutiae in simple, black-and-white, what's subtlety? terms. That's just incredibly short-sighted in my opinion. Especially when they're in the middle of an unfinished story. Is it suddenly a bad thing for a writer to conceive of something you didn't?

I remember reading a debate post where a shipper argued that if Character A really had romantic feelings for Character B, she would have behaved in a certain, and very specific, way. That her failure to perform this specific action was proof that she wasn't interested. Huh? How can you hold the author - who has far more information about her story and knows exactly how it's going to end - to the limits of your own imagination?

I've heard others say that J.K. Rowling has a responsibility to the young people who read her books to provide a moral standard within them, and that if she writes 'X' she will be squandering that responsibility and falling into the "Hollywood" trap of "sex sells." Would any of that matter if she were a less popular author? Or that as a woman she should be writing (or not writing) certain things because she has a responsibility to a feminist agenda. Would we be expecting such things if she were a man? Who is any fan to decide what the moral or social lessons of someone else's books should be?

The idea that if JKR writes such-and-such, she is automatically a lousy writer is just bizarre to me. Well, maybe not bizarre, but certainly immature. Like a child who decides that not only does he not like broccoli, but that it is, in fact, bad for his health. I can forgive attitudes like this in someone like my 5-year-old niece, but from adults who are supposed to be well-read and intelligent I expect a little better.

I am a committed Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione shipper in the context of the Harry Potter fandom. I am fairly confident that these two ships will be validated by future canon. But I am prepared to have been wrong all this time. I don't care for the idea that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. But it could very well turn out that he is. Does Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor or living happily ever after with Hermione mean that JKR failed? That she wasted her time writing these books? That she doesn't know how her own story should go? Of course not. It just means that I was wrong about where the story was headed.

I have nothing against people who subscribe to the Reader Response school of literary analysis. But shouldn't we be waiting until the story is finished before we start deciding what's bad and what's good? Even if "the author is dead", how can we possibly judge the puzzle when we don't have all the pieces?

In movies, as in books, there are certain topics, plot constructs, character types, and other storytelling devices that are considered undoable/trite/uncommercial/maudlin/whatever. But some of the best stories that have been told on film have been given to us by storytellers who take those cliches and untouchable ingredients and come up with something completely different. Who wants to see a movie where people talk and talk about something as vapid as television? Ask the fans of Network and the Academy that gave its writer an Oscar. All movies have to follow the three-act structure, right? Sorry, Tarantino. You'll never make it in Hollywood. Nobody wants to see musicals anymore, so don't waste your money investing in Chicago, Mr. Studio Boss. Boxing? Old-fart-trains-plucky-young-girl? Lots of scenes in an intensive care unit? Three strikes and you're out, Clint!


JKR is one of these freaks herself. She's not into fantasy literature and never has been, so she has no background in how to write such stories. She's writing a story about kids in a boarding school, which was considered politically incorrect at the time she started looking for a publisher. And her last book was longer than the New Testament. Hello, Jo! If I want to read War and Peace I've got a library card, KTHX. Yet here we are, hovering around our computers, planning parties, and counting down the days until we get something else of hers to read. She must be doing something right. Even if she's not writing ripping off your fanfic. Why not trust her to keep doing it right, instead of inveighing against crimes she may or may not commit against fiction as we know it in the next two books?

Gah. This is getting long. But I've seen the ranks of the "JKR Sucks" Brigade grow increasingly numerous and ever more vehement in the days leading up to the release of HBP. Are people steeling themselves for disappointment after OotP so cruelly crushed many of the expectations they built up over the 3-year wait? *shrugs* I guess so. But doesn't it kind of ruin the fun of the fandom when you shut yourself off from any joy you might have had from reading the next chapter of the story by essentially saying "Eh, who cares what happens? Rowling's a hack, anyway."

Sour grapes. Yum.
Mood:: 'pensive' pensive
There are 187 comments over 2 pages. (Reply.)
1 2
 
posted by [identity profile] mrs-bombadil.livejournal.com at 09:51pm on 24/06/2005
Of course, I so agree.

It's interesting because I think one of the "justifications" for this kind of ultimatum is the consumer power one might decide to assert. Simply because the books have generated incredible wealth, people feel they are "owed" something by the author.

However, my suggestion for them is to wait to spend the money until they think, based on reviews and such, that it will be worthwhile. :P

I suppose some will go ahead and make their purchase in the furor of release night even with grave doubts about the value they are getting, and assert that it's worth it to have all info needed for continued fandom participation. In this instance it would seem that what the skeptic is really motivated by is a desire for a certain fandom experience...which is something far more in his/her own control than the writer's.

So, if one's role is consumer or fandom member or emotionally invested shipper then take responsibility for your own damn self.

And, if you are really primarily concerned with artistic or literary merit, then wouldn't an open, not previously made-up mind be of greater service?
 
posted by [identity profile] chrysantza.livejournal.com at 11:04pm on 24/06/2005
I think one of the "justifications" for this kind of ultimatum is the consumer power one might decide to assert. Simply because the books have generated incredible wealth, people feel they are "owed" something by the author.


I agree with you. It's the old "The Customer Is Always Right!" idea. Which is now being abandoned even by businesses. At any rate, I fail to see why buying a book and thus putting some royalties in an author's coffers means I am entitled to have a say in the storyline.
 
posted by [identity profile] prongssr.livejournal.com at 10:11pm on 24/06/2005
If J.K. Rowling writes X (or doesn't write Y), I will have to conclude that I overestimated her as a writer.

The first time I noticed this was after her March, 2004 chat in which she sunk D/Hr and basically told us that Draco was not going to be redeemed. The furor over those comments about Draco led to an explosion on certain sites of criticism of how JKR will handle Draco's storyline; repetitive complaints on how Slytherins are stereotypical "villains" and "scum" and how JKR should write a more dimensional Slytherin. She has - Snape, but I think they are thinking specifically of Draco.

I honestly think people invest too much info fanfics and their personal wish fulfillment fantasies and those are the fans who will have the biggest let down and disappointment after book six.

I just don't understand how anyone would presume to tell JKR that she should do this or that, as she said, she is not taking dictation. If these same people want to create their own world and publish a book, then have it at, but to criticize her for not down what they want is just down right sad.
 
posted by [identity profile] joyfulgirl1013.livejournal.com at 12:54am on 25/06/2005
...basically told us that Draco was not going to be redeemed

I had heard about the D/Hr ship being sunk (poor Tom Felton XD), but I hadn't heard about this last part. Do you have the interview, or a direct quote from it? She rarely ever talks about him and I'm sort of a big fan.
 
posted by [identity profile] frankieb-sq87.livejournal.com at 10:15pm on 24/06/2005
How dare you think that I don't know the characters in HP better than their creator? How could you imagine that I don't know exactly what should happen to them?

It's insane, really. And sad. As I have said before. . . it's her world, we just get to play here. It's simple. If people don't like it, go away.
 
posted by [identity profile] athenakt.livejournal.com at 11:16pm on 24/06/2005
Agreed. Thinking that we know her characters would be akin to someone else saying that you're playing your character wrong in an RPG. WTF?

Speaking of which. Major icon love. Where in heavens name did you get that picture??
 
posted by [identity profile] chrysantza.livejournal.com at 11:00pm on 24/06/2005
But...but...I spent money on the book! I own the writer's soul and she OWES ME, dammit, because I am the CUSTOMER and the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT! If JKR dares to tell her own story she's a BITCH and MEEEEEN to her fans!

Word pie a-la mode, sister. And to the commentors above as well. The sense of entitlement in this fandom really boggles me at times. Criticism is all well and good, but "how dare the author not cater to MEEEEEEEE" is way out of line. Anyone who wants complete creative control really has no choice but to write their own story. Otherwise, it's JKR's story and she will tell it as she sees fit.

One can spend the money on HBP or one can choose not to. One is certainly entitled to constructively criticize HBP, or any other book. Hell, one is even entitled not to LIKE HBP or any other book. But to treat an author like she should be one's own organ-grinding monkey and get snitty when she doesn't dance on command is way beyond the pale. JMHO.
 
posted by [identity profile] siskiou.livejournal.com at 11:45pm on 24/06/2005
What irks me the most is that some people who think JKr should write the story a certain way (when it comes to romance, mostly) use reasoning like: If Ron and Hermione get together, it's a bad example for kids and she is letting whole generations of children down by presenting such a horrible relationship as loving.

Or: She missed the opportunity of writing the greatest love story ever, if she doesn't end HP with Harry and Hermione together.

What's wrong with just saying: I'd be terribly disappointed and I really thought she was foreshadowing this relationship, but I must have misinterpreted.
(That would be my reaction, should it turn out I read things into the canon that weren't really there).
 
posted by [identity profile] firoza.livejournal.com at 01:54am on 25/06/2005
What's wrong with just saying: I'd be terribly disappointed and I really thought she was foreshadowing this relationship, but I must have misinterpreted.
(That would be my reaction, should it turn out I read things into the canon that weren't really there).


I totally agree. If JKR does not go the R/H and/or H/G route, I'll be disappointed that I was WRONG, but I wouldn't bash her with "OMG! She SUX! Think of the children and the missed opportunity!!!". Eh, I'll live.

If JKR were to write H/H, or redeem Draco or dress Flitwick in drag I'd probably end up liking it. I just prefer canon over fanon any day and I'm not so invested in elaborate theories or how *I* think the story should go to be bracing myself for disappointment in HBP.
 
posted by [identity profile] wolfsbaine.livejournal.com at 11:54pm on 24/06/2005
I am one of the people you are complaining about, but not with regard to shipping. But I complained about JK’s abilities with regard to the fact that some say Remus Lupin will turn out to be evil. It is not because I don't want him to be evil as such or that I think it wouldn't work. I can live with evil Remus that isn't the issue.

The issue is that if you are any writer worth your salt, you do not create a character that is the banner man for all forms of prejudice and then make him the evil monster for real. It is so unimaginative, so predictable, so safe. Just what the *the Normal* people want to hear and read that the hidden monster is really the monster and they are right to be prejudice towards those who are different.

It lacks imagination, and for that reason if she does make him evil, she is being lazy, it is not an interesting twist, just laziness. I can’t see someone who has invested this much effort into her world of Harry Potter and her characters thus far as doing it.

Thus my respect for her would take knock if she did, because she has lead me to believe she is a better writer then this.

I don’t understand the thing about ships and writing fics though, why do you need JK’s stamp of approval on your fic ship. If anything it gives you a free reign to explore the relationship you like with out any guidelines from JK. I would have said that was much more fun to write.

But thanks for the very interesting post, that was thought provoking.

Regards.


 
posted by [identity profile] bluemeanies4.livejournal.com at 12:18am on 25/06/2005
Re shipping.

There is a substantial minority in the shipping portions of the fandom who aren't ficcing but attempting to analyze plot threads. Thus the our participation in shipping isn't about writing the most amazing love scene to keep our stomachs fluttering, but about predicting and spotting the love story line that JKR will eventual write (and perhaps set our stomachs aflutter). All too often because it is shipping and the arguements get rather intense, the presumption seems to be that we aren't legitimate prognisticators and should just get back to writing the smut, which most of us never did in the first place. For many, the romance seems more sure or more interesting avenues of prognostication.

I would be slightly disappointed if H/Hr happened, true, and some of my anger would be directed at JKR. But this is not because I would presume her a bad author. If H/Hr happened, I would have to accept the fact that she has deliberately lied in multiple interviews and this would lower my opinion of her (no, I cannot accept the multiple interpretations of 'platonic' touted by H/Hr that allow their ship to happen).
chthonya: Eagle owl eye icon (Default)
posted by [personal profile] chthonya at 11:57pm on 24/06/2005
(here from the 'snitch')

Are people steeling themselves for disappointment after OotP so cruelly crushed many of the expectations they built up over the 3-year wait?

I think that has a lot to do with it, and it's probably inevitable to some extent. In GoF the return of Voldemort and the split with Fudge heralded a turning point in the wizarding world. We'd had cleverly laid plot twists, a load of new background information, and there were still three books to come. It seems to me that fandom put JKR up on a pedestal which would probably be nigh-on impossible for anyone to sustain for three books.


But doesn't it kind of ruin the fun of the fandom when you shut yourself off from any joy you might have had from reading the next chapter of the story by essentially saying "Eh, who cares what happens? Rowling's a hack, anyway."

Yes, it does. But the fun is laced with more dread this time regardless.


Re: the Draco/Slytherin thing - I'm not a shipper, so I have no emotional investment in Hermione/Draco and so on. My disappointment in the way JKR has handled the Slytherins so far is partly because I feel it makes for a less interesting story not to have Harry's self-styled opponents more interesting, and partly because it strikes me as inconsistent with her anti-prejudice theme. It's not about wanting her to adopt anyone's versions of the characters other than her own, but rather about wanting her to present her characters in more depth.

Of course, we have to reserve judgement until the end of Book 7 (and I'm hoping she has a twist against anti-Slyth prejudice in store), but it seems less likely now that there was virtually no Slytherin character development in OotP - hence the fear that she's not being as subtle and clever as she seemed to be.

I'm actually fairly hopeful that HBP will restore our confidence (though again I will reserve judgement until I've read it). If so, perhaps the fandom can go into Book 7 with more realistic expectations than we had for OotP, but with a more positive outlook than we have at the moment. I hope so - Book 7 is going to be s atrange experience anyhow, and it would be great if it was greeted with more celebration than apprehension.
 
posted by [identity profile] persephone-kore.livejournal.com at 12:45am on 25/06/2005
Okay, officially baffled person here.

I will say up front that I believe JKR to have been setting up something with Slytherin all through the series -- something where Harry will have to reevaluate his assumptions and some of the very real problems with the house will be addressed. This is something that I expect and hope to see. I do think the quality of the books will be less if it doesn't happen than if it does, although they may still be good fun.

Now... I expected to see this come to some level of fruition in OotP, particularly while I was reading the Sorting Hat's plea, and it didn't. I was somewhat disappointed in many of the characters... but not, as it happens, in the book.

OotP was not a book in which characters, by and large, rose above themselves and dealt with people they couldn't stand. There are examples where this did happen, but it wasn't the overall tone. Very few people were at their best. The most successful character (in terms of accomplishing the character's goals) was Kreacher. I had to face up to the fact that I tended to give characters credit for more good sense than JKR had actually given them. *wry grin* It wasn't without hope -- it set up some good things, it contained some progress, and it ended on a strong note -- but it was kind of a down year for Harry. I am not sure it would have fit if JKR had tried to do that and at the same time have a transformation of attitudes toward and within Slytherin House.

We had the Sorting Hat's plea ignored; we had the Inquisitorial Squad. And yet, in the same book, we had Snape's Worst Memory -- which isn't a highlight in either party's behavior, but does evoke compassion and horror in Harry -- and Phineas Nigellus, who is annoying but still incredibly fun. (And this is supposed to be a flattened version of his personality?!)

We have what I found to be one of the most touching images with regard to mourning Sirius, of Phineas Nigellus walking from painting to painting and calling out for him.

It isn't real, no; it's not actually showing us the Slytherin mourning -- though we do see his shock earlier. But it may be even more significant that Harry is imagining it. Harry does not exactly make a habit of attributing positive motives and actions to Slytherins, in his sight or out of it. This is in large part understandable, though also in multiple cases unjustified -- but that only sets this instance apart. Harry comes up with this touching image for the Slytherin, most-unpopular-headmaster-ever... just because they share a connection to Sirius. And this is while he absolutely hates Snape.

...I'm still holding out for my theory, and I don't really think OotP weighs against it, overall.
 
posted by [identity profile] phurie-dae.livejournal.com at 12:04am on 25/06/2005
Hiya - I'm here from the [livejournal.com profile] daily_snitch

You just nailed exactly what has always bothered me about the HP fandom. I find it amazing just how pseudo-intellectual and snobbish people can get over the books. One of my particular peeves is when fans of a particular character (often Draco and Snape) accuse JKR of 'butchering the character' or 'not doing them justice'. Amd while I read their comments, I'm thinking, "Okay, one? JKR created these characters. I think that she actually might know what they are or aren't like. In fact, she's the final bloody authority. So if she says that Snape isn't a nice man, tough. He isn't. I don't think the fanfic world is going to suffer that much. Two? Series. Not. Finished. And three? Draco and Snape - yeah, they aren't actually real, you know. Their characters are the sum of what is printed in black and white so far- there is no 'doing them justice' and I'm sure they don't feel maligned about it.

I also feel my jaw drop when I see people declaring JKR is a bad writer who 'hates minor characters' for not devoting entire chapters to the likes of Narcissa Malfoy or Blaise Zabini (and the glorification of characters who are mentioned all of twice in five books is an entirely different rant!), or saying that they will throw the book across the room if JKR does anything to confirm or deny the characters' sexual preferences. Because by doing something like that then she is deliberately preventing readers from making up their own minds. You've really got to wonder why these people are reading the books at all if they don't want JKR to tell them the story.

I think that the HP fandom is just so full of diversity and scores of writers who will provide whatever their readers want on request, that a lot of fans have developed some serious entitlement issues. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if they REALLY want to read long, detailed, diverse plots and deep, meaningful character development? They might want to step out of the children's section.
 
posted by [identity profile] katiescarlet.livejournal.com at 04:50am on 25/06/2005
the glorification of characters who are mentioned all of twice in five books is an entirely different rant!

A different one, perhaps, but a very justified one. I just don't get that at all. o_0
 
posted by [identity profile] ook.livejournal.com at 12:23am on 25/06/2005
You know...making a post criticizing others for being critical is extremely ironic. ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] wildfyre.livejournal.com at 12:55am on 25/06/2005
I must admit I find it a little creepy that everything you're complaining about is something I've done in recent days. I don't know you, so I know it's only a coincidence, but still, I felt compelled to reply.

Anyone who cares enough to rant about this stuff obviously loves the Harry Potter universe, and at least a few of the characters. However, the books are not aimed at adults, so of course we're going to be a little nonplussed by the writing, and that's my major nitpick.

All of the plot-related stuff I just snark about for fun. Yes, I'll be disappointed if Harry and Ginny end up together because I have, naturally, built up expectations, but it won't affect me in any great way. But snarking is fun - that's why so many of us love Snape.

Some of the characterisation genuinely bothers me, but most of my complaints can be put down to the fact that I'm used to Tolkien and am currently reading children's books. So, yes, stereotypes irritate me, because I like characters to be "real." Having a house full of evil children (an oxymoron, surely?) whom we're all supposed to loathe jars with me beause it reminds me that I'm reading a children's book. Ditto for physical stereotypes of the Umbridge variety (was it really necessary to constantly remind us of her toad-like appearance?).

Anyway, my point is simply that my JKR rants are very tongue-in-cheek. Clearly, I love her books or I wouldn't be in the fandom. However, snarking and nitpicking is what I enjoy doing. The fandom would be a very dull place if none of us had a bad word to say about any aspect of the books, after all. But none of what I say - and I assume this goes for everyone else who makes similar rants - should be taken seriously. We're just having fun pulling the books to pieces in the same way that movie fans enjoy spotting continuity errors.

And besides, I reserve the right to make fun of any book that contains the sentences, "Harry span round," and "“Amos, be careful!” said a few of the wizards warningly."
 
posted by [identity profile] chrysantza.livejournal.com at 01:10am on 25/06/2005
I can't presume to speak for [livejournal.com profile] connielane but just for myself here:

JKR is not the perfect writer. She makes mistakes. I really don't have a beef with people who criticize so much as I get exasperated with those who get upset when the content of the books isn't what they want. People who say "JKR uses too many adverbs" I actually agree with. :) But people who say "I hate Tonks, that means she's a poorly written character and JKR should NEV-VAH have introduced a NEW CHARACTER OMG in the fifth book" are just silly. As are the people who say, "I paid money for this book therefore JKR owes me! The customer is always right" are doubly silly.

The difference, IMO, boils down to whether you're critiquing in a lit-crit sort of way (fine) or whether you're fwowing a tantwum in a Veruca Salt fashion because the book didn't live up to your expectations (bad).
 
posted by [identity profile] firoza.livejournal.com at 01:42am on 25/06/2005
I am a committed Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione shipper in the context of the Harry Potter fandom. I am fairly confident that these two ships will be validated by future canon. But I am prepared to have been wrong all this time. I don't care for the idea that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. But it could very well turn out that he is. Does Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor or living happily ever after with Hermione mean that JKR failed? That she wasted her time writing these books? That she doesn't know how her own story should go? Of course not. It just means that I was wrong about where the story was headed.

WORD. If JKR does not write what *I* want doesn't mean she sucks as a writer. IMO it means that I became too caught up in what *I* think should happen in the story versus what does. It's JKR's story. I'll let her finish it first. Then it's up to me if I like it or not. If I think Draco is a piece of crap and JKR turns him into a more likeable character I won't be bashing JKR with "OMG! JKR SUX". I'll shrug, admit I was wrong about Draco and go on.

I'm extremely excited to see what JKR comes up with in HBP. Despite Sirius's death, OotP is one of my favourite books in the HP series, right up there alongside GoF. I can't wait! Three more weeks!!
 
posted by [identity profile] author-by-night.livejournal.com at 01:58am on 25/06/2005
Could not agree more! I mean, I do think there's things JKR could do that'd make me stop liking the books, but they are so drastic I know she won't do them. (Like make the books NC-17 or something - she won't do *that*).
 
posted by [identity profile] queen-medb.livejournal.com at 03:07am on 25/06/2005
I think it's a little unfair to make a blanket generalisation like that. I'm not a shipper of any sort. I enjoy reading fics with a variety of different pairings, my fandom heart is devoted to an OTP (Sirius and Remus), there are certain pairings I tend to avoid because, for many reasons, I just don't enjoy them as much (Harry/Hermione, for one), but I'm not a shipper. I don't know or care what happens in canon in regards to the characters' love lives because I think it's fairly tangential to the story (except James/Lily, I suppose). But I do think JKR's writing is lacking in certain respects.

Many of her characters are caricatures, many have some development problems (everyone has a different opinion, but I know a lot of people think Ginny and Tonks are Mary Sues, for example). 1/4 of GoF and 2/3 of OotP could be cut out, she uses far too many adverbs, capitals to portray yelling and ellipses. And she's inconsistent in her characterisation and themes. For example, I am one of those people who will be disappointed if Draco (or any other pureblood Slytherin, really) isn't "redeemed" in the end because it weakens her theme of personal choice and making our own fate while creating a picture of a black and white world where all Slytherins are evil and all Gryffindors are good. Hogwash and kind of a dangerous lesson to be putting into the minds of millions of children, really. It has nothing to do with shipping, I don't care if Draco is redeemed so that he is with Hermione or Ginny or Harry or Hagrid or anyone else. I just want an upper class, pureblood Slytherin to not support Voldemort. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't make JKR a "bad writer", it just really weakens her work is all. Of course she and only she knows what the plot is and knows her characters through and through. It is ridiculous to suggest any one of us fans knows better. But we are perfectly entitled to be critical of certain aspects of her writing. After all, there are people who build their entire careers around critiquing far better and more influential writers than JKR.

I guess all I'm saying is that some of us want (or don't want) things to go a certain way for reasons that have nothing to do with shipping. Nor do we assume that we know anything better than the author herself, but we still sometimes complain about some parts of her work.
 
posted by [identity profile] prettyveela.livejournal.com at 03:14am on 25/06/2005
For example, I am one of those people who will be disappointed if Draco (or any other pureblood Slytherin, really) isn't "redeemed" in the end because it weakens her theme of personal choice and making our own fate while creating a picture of a black and white world where all Slytherins are evil and all Gryffindors are good.

So what is Snape? Chopped liver? :P

I have a nagging feeling that Snape is going to sarifice himself to save Harry, he's done a lot already, and I think it's going to come down to Snape saving Harry from the killing curse. :(

As for all Gryffindors are good, I think Percy and Peter are examples that not all Gryffs are fighting for the good guys.
 
posted by [identity profile] katiescarlet.livejournal.com at 04:27am on 25/06/2005
OMG, yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

We can't pass final judgment until we've read all seven books.
And even if "Idea X" seems cliche and cheesy and shallow we when think of it now, or read it in fanfics, that does NOT mean that it will be that way when JKR writes it. She's already using a crapload of "overused," "cliche," "archtypical" plot elements and character types, and it works. It works really well! Just look at the success of the books, and the rabid fans like all of us! (I'm here from the Daily Snitch, BTW.)

Anyway, in a word... Word! ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] a-crystal-heart.livejournal.com at 04:44am on 25/06/2005
(Re-posting comment on re-post as this is where all the action is ;) )

I quite agree with your nicely worded post.

I have only been very active in the HP online fandom for a short time, although I started reading the books before GoF was released. I have admittedly been a huge fan of the books and the writer. I cannot deny that there are occasionally things I have nitpicked at: the wrong order of those coming out of Voldemort's wand in GoF, occasional continuity errors, being slightly annoyed (but still sympathetic) by Harry's anger during OotP. None of this has turned me off of the books.

When I was shown the types of posts you are referring to, I have to admit to being very stunned.

I don't care if your ship doesn't happen, or your character doesn't turn out the way you want, or someone doesn't die that you think should. How can someone who claims to be a fan of a series of books, and of characters and events in those books, then claim that the author "sucks", is "cheesy", is a "hack", etc? The author IS the books. It is all brought to life by her own mind, no one else. To be so arrogantly presumptive to try to dictate what an author should write is beyond my ken.

I can honestly say that I have never said that an author, who I had previously liked, was awful or stupid or whatever, just because something they wrote or did not write disappointed me. I have had authors take their writing in directions I don't care for, or have books that had characters I did not identify with. There have been authors that were new to me that I have not liked, of course. I simply do not read them.

I expect to not always agree with an author, and believe this could very well happen with either of the two remaining HP books. There will be things I would LOVE to see that I doubt will happen and there will be things happen that I never dreamed of.

I will flat out directly say that if JK has things I do not agree with, or not write something I want to see, then that's really, truly fine. I may discuss it. I may express disappointment. But I will NEVER say that she sucks because of it. I would also never presume to say that I know better than her what directions her books should be taking. I would also expect that if I ever say otherwise, however remotely likely that is, to have it thrown back in my face. I can take it. I'm not sure others can.

I guess that if someone really feels the way they do, maybe the fandom is better without them at all.


(Sorry, couldn't resist using this icon. :D )
 
posted by [identity profile] empressov.livejournal.com at 09:18pm on 25/06/2005
How can someone who claims to be a fan of a series of books, and of characters and events in those books, then claim that the author "sucks", is "cheesy", is a "hack", etc? The author IS the books.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
 
posted by [identity profile] phoenixwriter.livejournal.com at 10:47am on 25/06/2005
Before I comment away let me say I found this entry through a friend of my friend...a likely story, you see.

Why not trust her to keep doing it right, instead of inveighing against crimes she may or may not commit against fiction as we know it in the next two books?

I find it interesting that you say first we should wait that JKR finish her story before to critic her yet you praise her or let say it different you seem to expect she does it right before you know what she'll write. Isn't that in the same way wrong? I tend to think so. You can't say that a movie will be great if you don't even know the end of it yet. In case of books and stories you have to know the end of the story to decide how great that one really was.

How many stories exist where it started all very promising and in the end it went down the hill?

I'm not saying it must be like that by JKR but in OotP we read the whole subplot about Hagrid and Grawp, a lot people in this fandom were pretty much annoyed about that one. This is an example a very canon like example that JKR may not finish her story and people will still praise her for it.

As for the shipping part and debates, I really don't think this are good examples to judge peoples expectations. In a debate you're most of the time writing in theory, you are assuming esp. in shipping debates. That's why I highly doubt your example:

I remember reading a debate post where a shipper argued that if Character A really had romantic feelings for Character B, she would have behaved in a certain, and very specific, way. That her failure to perform this specific action was proof that she wasn't interested. Huh? How can you hold the author - who has far more information about her story and knows exactly how it's going to end - to the limits of your own imagination?

shows nothing at all IMO. Its probably even out of context, I suspect.

Till now JKR did very well but one shouldn't go so far by saying she is the best author out there, there are enough brilliant authors who had less luck. In this case I dare say it got a lot to do with luck in some ways. Certainly writing a story, a fantasy story where the fantasy world co-exist with the real one, including characters who are plain is certainly brilliant. But where to go from there? This remains to be seen.

So long people are allowed to critic her story, for that her story was published. It shouldn't be plain flaming just like it shouldn't be mindless praising but it should be a critic IMO.



 
posted by [identity profile] phoenixwriter.livejournal.com at 10:51am on 25/06/2005
Is it simply a lack of trust in the author?

I'm not found to read that someone should have enough trust in an author its an equal say that one should have enough trust in mankind and we all know how human err. JKR happens to be a human, her story was immensely promoted in the past and now this sets the expectation very high. I find it very unhealthy to expect from her to fulfil all this wild dreams. We saw already....eh...I saw already previous OotP how so many people had a very high expectation after they read OotP they said it reads like a fanfic and they were disappointed. Several people even left this Fandom too.

Is it a lack of trust if people think its entire possible that HBP might be just as disappointing? I don't think so its more likely a natural reaction, far more natural as to say that book will be great and all predictions will come true.

But doesn't it kind of ruin the fun of the fandom when you shut yourself off from any joy you might have had from reading the next chapter of the story by essentially saying "Eh, who cares what happens? Rowling's a hack, anyway."

It ruins the fun too if you read a story with your mind set that Rowling can't disappoint you, that her books must be great. As strange as it sounds I never read a story with those kind of expectations, I'm probably always bit sceptic and thats the greatest thing at all if you smile broadly because its indeed a great read but you're not starting to fuss either if its not all great.

I rather among those who eat their words afterward as to be one who starts to flame her work later but all the while I was pretending people should trust her or she is anyway a great writer. Here I don't mind to say later that I was way too sceptic regarding how this story ends but I won't start praising her without knowing how Harry gets ride of Voldemort...not that its like in one of this mock Fanfics where he smacked him across the head with a frying pan though I lmao about that. The power he knows not...a pan *lol* still cracks me up.
(mystery)[identity profile] connielane.livejournal.com
(mystery)[identity profile] phoenixwriter.livejournal.com
(mystery)[identity profile] miss-celestine.livejournal.com
 
posted by [identity profile] miss-celestine.livejournal.com at 02:22pm on 25/06/2005
Preach it, my friend. There is nothing that irks me more, fandom-wise, than reading "I hope JKR is nicer to my poor Draco in HBP, or else she's totally mean and I will hate her, bitch whine rant" or even worse, "I ship X and if JKR doesn't the whole story will be completely ruined".
First of all, how can a ship ruin a book? Is that all there is to Harry Potter: knowing who's going to get with who? I enjoy shipping and debating as much as the same person, but geez, this isn't Days of our Lives. And no, if H/Hr happens, I will not burn my books and refuse to keep reading. I will still love HP. And I trust JKR to make me like the pairing, the plot-twists and the ending she choses. Because she's that good.
No author is above criticism. For example, I didn't really like the way JK handled Cho in OotP. But she wouldn't write anything if it wasn't to serve the character development and plot, to entertain her readers and to make them discover new aspects of the world she create. And yes, that includes Grawp and the whole Hagrid story, as much as some people criticise that part.
Some online fans sometimes make me think of spoiled brats. They're used to getting their fantasies come true in fanfictions, so they expect the same from the author, regardless of what she planned.
The funny thing is, I don't think the nine year-old kids who read HP have the same demands. A very interesting book called Mon pote Harry Potter, was released in France before OotP and it was made by a fan who published answers to several surveys he posted online. To the question "What do you wish will happen to Harry in the following books" most kids answered along the lines of "I hope his group of friends will grow", "I hope there will still be Quidditch and all the things I love at Hogwarts", "I hope neither Ron nor Hermione dies", etc.

So when did our world of fans lose track of what's important to the series, and to JKR? Why did having Ron die a gruesome death "cuz omg he's such an evil abusive freak" or Hermione bitchslap Ginny "cuz that hor is tryin to steal her man" become so high on certain people's list of prorities? Did anyone expect Legolas to be in fact Sauron's ally cuz he was his sex slave in Lord of the Rings before the final instalment was released? Why can't wank leave HP alone, or better, yet why can't those who can't accept to be wrong?

(ps: sorry if I spammed your inbox by editing my comment three times :P)
 
posted by [identity profile] caalan.livejournal.com at 05:50pm on 25/06/2005
I'm not sure that it is fair to call all of this "sour grapes." I'm not one to say that JKR will be a horrid author if she doesn't write a certain twist on a given plot. I will say I won't like it. It will make it less probable that I venture into any new projects of hers.

All of us, every one of us plays the critic. Open any newspaper and you see a highly subjective review of a movie or a book. The review formulated by holding the material up to a set of personal criteria that can be completely different from our own. Oftentimes, they use very harsh words in relaying that information. Rowling's work will suffer no different fate. She has put forth five and soon to be six books and that is quite enough for a person to decide already whether she is superb, ordinary, or a "hack."

There are quirks in her writing that I have a problem with. She leaves major characters underdeveloped, or just not in pace with others, and can get really carried away with adverbs. I doubt this changes in the next two books. I enjoy the story immensely, but I do not idolize her craftwork. None of us can predict what will happen, but it is fun to theorize, and to be honest...yes, if certain things were to happen I would be disappointed because it would be the easy way out. There are many cases after reading a book, or watched a television program, that I've gone to fanfiction and read a "better ending." So I don't automatically discount the posts you are referring to as all being petulant.

The point I am making is that all of this is going to be highly subjective and quite personal for each of us in the end. It's supposed to be. If someone wants to call JKR a hack for making it R/Hr or H/Hr or killing off DD or even Harry, then that is just normal procedure.

As you pointed out, many books and films have done well despite negative opinions and press. It just proves that all of us are very different, belong to different "houses" so to speak. Many of the posts you refer to were found in debating communities or areas, right? I don't think they are out to ruin fandom but participating in the spirit of fandom itself. I enjoy all the debates thoroughly, and the passionate arguments used by these persons to support their theory.

If you are talking about the poster that puts out "JKR is a hack if she writes X and not Y" and provides no proof, then yes, I'll agree that is rather pointless and deflating. If you are referring to those that have written essays, fan fictions, and debated valiantly, then I'll have to say...No, that's not sour grapes. To me, that's fine wine.
 
posted by [identity profile] connielane.livejournal.com at 06:06pm on 25/06/2005
If you are talking about the poster that puts out "JKR is a hack if she writes X and not Y" and provides no proof, then yes, I'll agree that is rather pointless and deflating.

That's exactly what I'm referring to. People deciding before they even read it that a particular detail/plot twist/romantic pairing will relegate the series as a whole to the category of "worthless". I've seen people literally say this many times, and it's getting more frequent as HBP approaches.

Theorizing, debating, and fanfiction writing is why most of us are in the fandom, and I'm not condemning that at all. I myself have been a very vociferous ship debater. But when people decide that if their conceptions of the series differ from JKRs, her books must be worthless, that's just plain arrogance.
 
posted by [identity profile] always-ciircee.livejournal.com at 10:58pm on 25/06/2005
Sour grapes. Yum.

Word. I know you're probably getting a lot of crap for this and people say it's shipping based...bah, I say. I think it's crap for anybody to say 'If JKR doesn't do X (say, redeem Draco) then she's not THAT good'. If somebody is going to change their opinion of a writer because something they want to happen DIDN'T...well, that's their right. But it doesn't seem good of them to place the blame on the WRITER for something that THEY misjudged or misread or just reeeeeeeeeally wanted to happen.

And the 'I'm a better fan than you' doesn't even play into this. It's just crap behaviour that you're calling them on, not their dedication. So don't let them get you down.
 
posted by [identity profile] miss-eponine.livejournal.com at 11:50pm on 25/06/2005
Thank you so much for this. I simply do not understand those who claim that anything except for X or Y is going to make JKR a hack and that there is no way they will ever enjoy X or Y if it appears in canon. That said, with the exception of the previous post about Remus being evil, I've never seen anyone in the fandom claim they would burn their books for anything except ships. I don't see why shipping incites the fervor that it does for some people.

I am also H/G and R/Hr, and I do expect these ships to appear in canon. However, if I am wrong, it is because I misinterpreted canon, not because Jo has written the 'wrong ship.' I will fully accept that I am to blame, not Jo.

There are some plot twists that would definitely make me question Jo's ability, but these would be along the lines of Dumbledore really being the evil mastermind behind Voldemort's plot or Voldemort just needing the love of a good woman to turn him back to the light. These are quite honestly things that are never going to appear in canon. They would be quite out of the realm of Rowling's writing up to this point, and if she suddenly deviated from her established style of writing, then I would question it. However, if something occurs that seems completely out of character for her, then I will wait until book 7 and the story is finished before making any claims about her ability as a writer.

I accept that not everyone enjoys Jo's writing. I accept that some people think the development of certain characters is less than what they would like. Not everyone loves every character we're meant to love or dislikes every character we're meant to dislike, and that's their right. What I don't understand is the claim that the omniscient creator of the series will be getting things wrong if she chooses something contrary to what you would like.
 
posted by [identity profile] girlandetc.livejournal.com at 02:16pm on 28/06/2005
Voldemort just needing the love of a good woman to turn him back to the light.

HAHAHHAHAHA <3
 
posted by [identity profile] angua9.livejournal.com at 11:55pm on 25/06/2005
The thing that bothers me the most about the kind of behavior you're talking about is not the whininess of it but the oblivious "the entire universe revolves around me" aspect of it.

When I see someone say "if [convoluted plot that sounds absolutely stupid to me] doesn't happen Rowling is a hack," it sounds like they really think Jo has carefully weighed the pros and cons of [ridiculous convoluted plot] and decided not to use it because she doesn't care to strike a blow for gay rights or she unfairly hates Percy or whatever. When really, the particular "opportunity" in question has probably never occurred to her and wouldn't fit in the plot she has planned anyway.

And Rowling can't win with these people, anyway. For every "JKR is a hack if she does X, Y, or Z," there usually is someone saying "JKR is a hack if she doesn't do X, Y, or Z."

So much for the joy and wonder of discovery.
 
posted by [identity profile] chrysantza.livejournal.com at 12:19am on 26/06/2005
The thing that bothers me the most about the kind of behavior you're talking about is not the whininess of it but the oblivious "the entire universe revolves around me" aspect of it.


Oh yes. (Even though the whining does get to me sometimes.) You really have to wonder where some people get their sense of entitlement, and why. It might be a nice fantasy to have a client writer at one's beck and call but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
 
posted by [identity profile] lilac-bearry.livejournal.com at 04:50am on 26/06/2005
Wow! Looks like I've missed all the fun!

I agree with what you've written (and you've written it so well, at that).

A couple of weeks back when I wrote that "I'm okay with what Jo writes" in lieu of predictions, it's not that I was saying, "YES! It's all going to be perfect and I will love every bit of what she writes to pieces even before she writes it, I just know it!!!!!". :D It was more like, "I'm getting myself ready for whatever she writes by not having a laundry list of expectations." Though I probably will like it, based on previous experience. :D
 
posted by [identity profile] karet.livejournal.com at 03:32pm on 26/06/2005
Who does Rowling think she is, anyway?
 
posted by [identity profile] agatha-s.livejournal.com at 05:56pm on 26/06/2005
I'm here via the Daily Snitch, and I agree with everything you wrote. I friended you -- hope you don't mind? I've felt so often lately as if I was the only J. K. Rowling fan in the Harry Potter fandom.
 
posted by [identity profile] delemtri.livejournal.com at 05:51am on 27/06/2005
Have faith - you are not alone!
 
posted by [identity profile] girlandetc.livejournal.com at 02:14pm on 28/06/2005
thank you, christ. jkr may not be the best in terms of writing ability - she can be verbose and weird and miss details and screw things up - but clearly she has created a story and a world that has gotten over a million pre-orders for the next book. that's success. i think fans get mad a jkr because she screws up details (the missing day in '81, weasley ages, etc), and as fans we like to scrutinize the details and discuss every little plot twist and turn. however, i think it's ridiculous when people say that they'll stop being a fan/stop reading/be SOO CRUSHED OMGZ if the book doesn't turn out the way they want. isn't that what fanfic is for.. writing it the way you imagined? grrr.
There are 187 comments over 2 pages. (Reply.)
1 2

March

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
    1
 
2
 
3
 
4
 
5
 
6
 
7
 
8
 
9
 
10 11
 
12
 
13
 
14
 
15
 
16
 
17
 
18
 
19
 
20
 
21
 
22
 
23
 
24
 
25
 
26
 
27
 
28
 
29
 
30
 
31